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Device Chat => Repairable Atomisers => Topic started by: Jimbojones on September 07, 2014, 02:35:33 PM

Title: Question for you genny pro's
Post by: Jimbojones on September 07, 2014, 02:35:33 PM
I purchased my first genesis atty, the kraken clone from m-vapes. Im having some problems with the build, i keep getting dry hits with the supplied mesh (which I've now run out of!) and have also tried a microcoil and cotton setup and still find i get dry hits. Generally i find the top of the coil tends to glow red so I'm guessing its a wicking problem, my wicks are a nice slide fit so don't think I'm choking the wick. The juice I'm using is a 70vg 30pg mix so wondered if the juice to viscous?
Title: Re: Question for you genny pro's
Post by: itsmeitis on September 07, 2014, 02:45:00 PM
with regard stainless mesh as per the genesis setup, that particular phenomenon is a 'hot spot', and unlikely confined to wicking issues ...

where the top most point of the coil is glowing red, it more often than not, means you have a short ... basically, your mesh wick is likely touching the metal body of the atomiser and/or minuscule frays of wire from the edge of the mesh...

electricity follows the shortest route of resistance, and the glowing red top wire, demonstrates that a circuit is being made up to the start point of said glow ...

my advice would be to wind the coil so it just and so rests gently against the mesh - ensure the mesh is clear of both the bottom of the tank and also the hole where mesh passes through the deck into the tank.
torching the mesh prior to use will often eliminate minute frays which are often difficult to see unless glowing orange under the intense heat of a blow-torch.



where wicking fails while using microcoil/cotton, particularly if tilting the device has failed to remedy the problem, i would suspect the cotton might simply be just too snug.
Title: Re: Question for you genny pro's
Post by: Jimbojones on September 07, 2014, 03:11:51 PM
Interesting that i get the top of the coil glowing with cotton wicks also? I will recheck for shorts...
I have some more wire mesh on order so will retry the mesh again when that comes, though i find it hard to see how i can avoid touching the sides of the wick hole or should a good coil hold the mesh well centred?
Also my kraken has a grub screw in the opposite wick hole, should i remove that or is the fill hole enough to avoid poor wicking?
Title: Re: Question for you genny pro's
Post by: itsmeitis on September 07, 2014, 03:28:16 PM
there are no reasons i can think of for the top only glow unless afflicted by electrical short ...


this picture how a properly coiled genny should fire, while without juice ...

(http://i1256.photobucket.com/albums/ii489/mikeother1/IMG_2004_zpsf111887e.jpg)

and this one is how it should fire, without a wick ...

(http://i1256.photobucket.com/albums/ii489/mikeother1/IMG_5284_zps66939ebd.jpg)

the initial and final section of kanthal (coil) offer least resistance and tend not to glow.
Title: Re: Question for you genny pro's
Post by: Capt12B on September 07, 2014, 03:29:22 PM
The Kraken does have small wick holes and leaving the full hole open might help the wicking, though I do keep mine plugged to help reduce leaks, but a 70/30 VG/PG is pretty thick and might be part of the issue. You are keeping the wick toward you while you vape?  Do you set up your coil while the tank is empty and give it several good 10 sec dry burns to help settle the coil in before filling ?  Personally I found I have far fewer hot spot issues now that I tend to make micro coils with 28g kanthal (typically a  7/6 wrap on mechanical  mods) .
Title: Re: Question for you genny pro's
Post by: Jimbojones on September 07, 2014, 03:54:29 PM
Always keep the coil tilted towards myself,yes. Have tried a silica build coming out at 2.5 ohms and with a mech mod and fresh 18350 battery it wicks ok with no dry hits unless i close the airflow down to lowest. With a kick installed and set to 15w it dry hits and all the coils glow red hot. Juice im using is a 80pg 20vg mix
Title: Re: Question for you genny pro's
Post by: zarf on September 07, 2014, 05:01:45 PM
hm, seems almost certainly to be a wicking shortfall.

Adjust "density" of your wick down (i.e. try leaving it "fluffier", not so tight). Also, allow an extra length (4-6mm?) to protrude from top of coil, as this extra "nubbin" of wick can serve as a "local cache" of ejuice...

(if you have access to tencel/rayon, or even "cellucotton"(rayon), you can try replacing your cotton with that, as it wicks much faster)

ps. for taste (and vapour production), I consider mesh to work better, so when you do manage to replenish your mesh stocks, try to build a mesh wick, where you cut out your workpiece at 45 degrees to the mesh's "grain". (this is more useful when bending mesh wicks, but also helps capillary action)
Title: Re: Question for you genny pro's
Post by: Jimbojones on September 07, 2014, 07:28:39 PM
Cheers zarf, i will stick with it till i master it not gonna let it defeat me!
Title: Re: Question for you genny pro's
Post by: itsmeitis on September 07, 2014, 08:53:45 PM
having had plenty of success with gennies with high VG ratio and high PG ratio, high resistance and low resistance, full of juice and completely empty ...

the only thing i don't think i have done, is deliberately put extended power through one ... i therefore wonder if the heightened wattage might be the problem :-\

Title: Re: Question for you genny pro's
Post by: zarf on September 07, 2014, 09:40:01 PM
thought I may post this for you, or general info :



Twill weave mesh (more commonly used by vapers. results in a heavier "feel" to the wick, when rolled):

400# mesh (http://www.vape-atomizer-mesh.com/products/-400-x-0.025mm--25-Micron-or-50-AWG--Super-Fine-Vape-Mesh---TWILL-WEAVE--316-Marine-Grade-Stainless-Steel---150-x-250mm-Sheet-2459.html) from VapeMesh Company - two sheets of this size (£2.25 ea) is just a penny more, but gives you more, than one sheet  of the A4 size (£4.50). This is better suited for the more viscous ejuices (like your 30/70, or 50/50,etc)



---

plain weave mesh (pricier):



400# mesh (http://www.vape-atomizer-mesh.com/products/400-025mm-25micron-316-marine-vape-mesh-250mm-2332.html) from VapeMesh Company - two sheets of this size is cheaper (£3.25 ea), and you get more, than  one sheet (£6.99) of the A4 size. This is better suited for the more viscous ejuices (like your 30/70, or 50/50,etc)

400# mesh (uses thicker wire) (http://www.vape-atomizer-mesh.com/products/400-030mm-30micron-316-marine-vape-mesh-A4-2405.html) from VapeMesh Company - one sheet of this A4 size is cheaper (£4.99) , and price is comparable to two sheets of the next size down (£2.79 ea). (i.e. priced correctly. ha ). This is better suited for the more viscous ejuices (like your 30/70, or 50/50,etc).



---> I'm unsure whether finer or thicker wire used to make the mesh itself is better for thicker juices. (I suspect thinner wire to be better, all-round.... :?)



(possibly not useful for you, as you use vg-heavy ejuices, but included anyway):

500# mesh (http://www.vape-atomizer-mesh.com/products/500-025mm-25micron-316-marine-vape-mesh-250mm-2335.html) from VapeMesh Company - two sheets of this size is cheaper (£3.25 ea), and you get more, than  one sheet (£6.99) of the A4 size. This is better suited for thinner ejuices (70/30 or 80/20).
I use this in my kraken, kayfuns, and odd dripper. (it's often months before I change mesh wicks - 4 months for an often-used kayfun lite I'm vaping right now ... :/ )


---

japanese cotton:
japanese cotton (http://www.vape-atomizer-mesh.com/products/100--Pure-Cotton-Pad----2713.html) from VapeMesh Company. (99p for pack of ten sheets)  I haven't tried this, as I am averse to using cotton much now. I'm also unsure whether this is Koh Gen Do cotton or Muji cotton. Either way, scuttlebutt has that it's quite good...

---

Rayon:

cellucotton (http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2047675.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0&_nkw=Graham%27s+CelluCotton%2C+100%25+Rayon+Fiber&_sacat=0) prices vary - under £4 should keep you stocked for a year,or two.
(look for 100% rayon. there are various sku numbers. some use "reinforcement"(cotton?) - which can be removed, some are 100% cotton - which isn't what you want, unless you WANT overpriced cotton, I suppose ... xD )


Tencel Tops (http://www.scottishfibres.co.uk/acatalog/Vegetable_fibres.html). This is the Rayon which I use in drippers and one kayfun. A wick lasts me about a month in a daily-use dripper - similar in the kayfun. (yes, a month: scout's honour)
Should work well in a kraken,too. £2.50 for 100g (postage doubles that). 100g should last a year or two.

Scottish fibres also have bamboo fibre (and other fibres) which I may even get round to testing (some day)

Title: Re: Question for you genny pro's
Post by: Jimbojones on September 08, 2014, 11:01:24 AM
Nice one zarf! Ive tried celucotton in my dripper and find it wicks well when fresh but soon clogs up and doesnt soak and wick as efficiently as cotton does over time. Ive gone ahead and ordered some 325 & 400 mesh, ecowool and ss rope cheers
Title: Re: Question for you genny pro's
Post by: zarf on September 08, 2014, 01:44:25 PM
(...) Ive tried celucotton in my dripper and find it wicks well when fresh but soon clogs up and doesn't soak and wick as efficiently as cotton does over time. Ive gone ahead and ordered some 325 & 400 mesh, ecowool and ss rope
That's an interesting note on the cellucotton.(thank you, as I have yet to try the cellucotton variant of Rayon).

The rayon I use is "Tencel Tops", which presents as LONG fibres with the texture of silk strands. My findings with it are:
Tencel expands far less than cotton (so one has to use much more of it in a wick to maintain good wick-to-coil contact - contrary to the cotton maxim of "less is more"), but it wicks like mad, so long draws work very well. Its long fibres make it a bit more tedious with which to work, but a folded-over length of kanthal can be used to hold a suitable amount and pull it through a microcoil.
I haven't tried direct-coiling a pinch of it yet, but that should work,too - as long as coils are wrapped tightly.
In a dripper I use for cinnamon vapes I found it never really gunked up, and once, after a fortnight's use, I rinsed it under a tap -just for the hell of it,as it wasn't necessary. After drying, it worked just as well as when first installed. (?)
A result of its superb wicking is that one doesn't get as gradual a change in vape to serve as a warning of imminent ejuice replenishment being needed, as one gets with cotton. One literally has to re-drip, or re-fill, as soon  as the first "off-note" is detected in a vape.

325 mesh: yeah, that probably may be better for your vg-heavy ejuices. (dunno how SS rope will cope with viscous ejuices - works well with 60/40 and 70/30)

Hope you sort out your kraken soon...
Title: Re: Question for you genny pro's
Post by: Jimbojones on September 08, 2014, 02:13:11 PM
Where do you get your tencil top fibre from? Yeah im frustrated with it at the moment when i do get it going i dont get the flavour of my juice as good as my kayfun or drippers :(
Title: Re: Question for you genny pro's
Post by: itsmeitis on September 08, 2014, 02:15:42 PM
Where do you get your tencil top fibre from?

Reply #9
Title: Re: Question for you genny pro's
Post by: zarf on September 08, 2014, 02:38:07 PM
Where do you get your tencil top fibre from? Yeah im frustrated with it at the moment when i do get it going i dont get the flavour of my juice as good as my kayfun or drippers :(
(...)Tencel Tops (http://www.scottishfibres.co.uk/acatalog/Vegetable_fibres.html).  <<<---- click on the link. (then scroll to bottom of the linked page)

This is the Rayon which I use in drippers and one kayfun. A wick lasts me about a month in a daily-use dripper - similar in the kayfun. (yes, a month: scout's honour)
Should work well in a kraken,too. £2.50 for 100g (postage doubles that). 100g should last a year or two.

Scottish fibres also have bamboo fibre (and other fibres) which I may even get round to testing (some day)
Title: Re: Question for you genny pro's
Post by: Jimbojones on September 08, 2014, 06:27:34 PM
Doh  :banghead didnt realise they where linked!  :violent
Title: Re: Question for you genny pro's
Post by: Jimbojones on September 11, 2014, 05:41:28 PM
Finally cracked it after many many failed attempts ive got a working 1.8ohm single coil mesh build  with no shorting or hot leg issues! Very happy thanks for the help guys  :wave
Title: Re: Question for you genny pro's
Post by: itsmeitis on September 11, 2014, 05:42:11 PM
nice one mate & congrats 8)
Title: Re: Question for you genny pro's
Post by: Jimbojones on September 11, 2014, 05:58:29 PM
Another question, is it normal for the liquid to turn brown? Im using a homemade 80pg mix 6mg nic with 6% Sucralose sweetener, clear when filled and after 5mins of Vaping starting to turn brown, is this just caramelisation?
Title: Re: Question for you genny pro's
Post by: itsmeitis on September 11, 2014, 06:05:33 PM
yes, in most cases the e-liquid in a genny tank will darken as you go - very likely is just caramelising where exposed to heat of the coil.
Title: Re: Question for you genny pro's
Post by: Capt12B on September 11, 2014, 06:39:51 PM
The juice in all my gennys is VERY brown by the time the tank is almost empty. I find that it's best to turn the  genny wick side up prior to refilling and dry burning till the coil is glowing evenly red again. When you do this you burn off all the crud that builds up and can tune up the coil with a nudge here or there if needed. I then refill and all is well :)
Title: Re: Question for you genny pro's
Post by: zarf on September 11, 2014, 08:13:16 PM
Finally cracked it ...  ive got a working 1.8ohm single coil mesh build  with no shorting or hot leg issues! Very happy ...
congrats. were you able to suss out what you changed from your earlier attempts to sort it out?
 or was it a case of repetition "building muscle memory" until ...er... it automatically emerged as "what seemed the right thing to do" ?

(relax. with gennies, I find I sometimes cannot explain why a particular build works better than another...)

Now: be prepared for increased ejuice consumption... xD
(yeah, I find mesh-driven coils vaporise ejuice more efficiently)
Title: Re: Question for you genny pro's
Post by: Jimbojones on September 11, 2014, 08:38:45 PM
Just repetition really, its not a perfect build but it is certainly working 100% better than any previous attempts. i couldn't get a microcoil and cotton build to wick well enough no matter how i placed the cotton wick, even with a higher pg liquid. I wonder if the threaded wick hole is maybe slightly smaller than the authentic kraken therefore the swelling of the cotton is causing an issue there. Now ive got my mesh stocks replenished i don't see the necessity to use cotton for the time being while im learning how to build on a genny, KISS i guess!
Title: Re: Question for you genny pro's
Post by: Jimbojones on November 11, 2014, 08:24:30 PM
dusted off my kraken tonight and popped a 2mm ss rooe with 325 mesh 5 wrap 28g getting a great vape but having an issue with juice getting on the air hole and gurgling. Is this due to tipping too far while taking a hit, over wicking or spit back?
Title: Re: Question for you genny pro's
Post by: zarf on November 11, 2014, 09:09:12 PM
(...) having an issue with juice getting on the air hole and gurgling. Is this due to tipping too far while taking a hit, over wicking or spit back?

hm, with genesis atomisers, that only happens to me if I'm lying down watching the telly,etc.
Try sitting up  when you vape ? (lol) ... or turn the wick to the opposite side if single coil. Alternatively, if using dual coils, rotate atomiser so neither wick is at the bottom when tilted, i.e.both equidistant from the bottom .

(ps. i'm not sure of the cause of gurgling, other than the wick already being well-saturated, and the tilting allowing excess ejuice in the chamber to collect around the airhole - which i only experience when vaping while lying down on the couch...)
Title: Re: Question for you genny pro's
Post by: Jimbojones on November 12, 2014, 03:28:55 PM
hm, with genesis atomisers, that only happens to me if I'm lying down watching the telly,etc.
Try sitting up  when you vape ? (lol)

Dammit i like being a slob!  :dance

I must have rebuilt my kraken atleast 20 times now getting closer to a decent setup tho it's definitely the toughest attomiser to master thats for sure.