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Author Topic: ISSUE - a request for 23 000 dollars  (Read 5730 times)

itsmeitis

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ISSUE - a request for 23 000 dollars
« on: January 16, 2014, 12:15:43 PM »

some of us will recognise the name from infomercials delivered by a prominent UK based e-cig company - others might know him from other contributions inside the industry.
more recently we might also recognise him from his work in presenting evidence to the EU commission, and subsequent reports of misrepresentation in that regard.

A recent study performed by Dr Farsalinos revealed the presence of some potentially harmful-to-inhale ingredients in electronic cigarette liquids. In order to define the magnitude of the problem and provide the solution for the safety of all vapers, it has been decided to organize a fund-raising campaign and obtain as many e-liquid samples as possible that will be tested in an experienced and highly-specialized laboratory.

The problem is complex, because the vast majority of e-liquid manufacturers and suppliers are NOT aware that these chemicals are present in their liquids (or, even worse, they have been falsely informed that they are not present).

He strongly believes that electronic cigarettes are a revolution in tobacco harm reduction and supports that with further research we can develop better quality products.

$23 000 - should help.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2014, 12:30:22 PM by itsmeitis »
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itsmeitis

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Re: ISSUE - a request for 23 000 dollars
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2014, 12:34:38 PM »

« Last Edit: January 16, 2014, 12:39:41 PM by itsmeitis »
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kondor101

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Re: ISSUE - a request for 23 000 dollars
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2014, 01:21:09 PM »

"the study will be published in medical journals"
We will see, as of yet the only thing I have read of his that has been published in a peer reviewed medical journal was one that had in the conclusion that Ecigs were not as good as nicotine inhalers and cigs for delivering nicotine.
Quote
Finally, our findings suggest that nicotine delivery is significantly reduced by EC use compared to cigarette smoking and nicotine inhaler at similar use-periods


I have seen him make some pretty positive conclusions on our side, but not the sort that would stand up to a childs review let alone a peer review.  You know the sort where the results say one thing, and then he comes to some off the bat conclusion that seemingly has nothing to do with the results.

Maybe it is not his fault, maybe he really wants to get proper peer reviewed articles that favour ecigs in the medical journals, and he would certainly need money to achieve it. 

I really want him to get something peer reviewed that highlights ecigs for what they are, an alternative to smoking that IS helping people quit a known danger for something that is unknown.  Our best guess is that Ecigs are safer than smoking, we do need peer reviewed research at some point to confirm this. 

However, a peer reviewed article about the various elements in ecigs is only going to result in negative press I feel.
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ukric

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Re: ISSUE - a request for 23 000 dollars
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2014, 01:39:26 PM »

Ahem.

Dooo doo doo do doo do do doo do doo doo doo, doo doo do doo dooooo

HAI EVERYBODEE

And that's all I have to say about that.
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itsmeitis

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Re: ISSUE - a request for 23 000 dollars
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2014, 01:54:55 PM »

well this certainly raises a few questions, and exposes the shear recklessness of vendors such as this arty bright spark here telling how one medical professional is less knowledgeable than evidence would now sorely contradict.

'still, picks up an encouraging 'like', from the blonde representative though' - ffs ::)
« Last Edit: January 16, 2014, 02:51:07 PM by itsmeitis »
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kondor101

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Re: ISSUE - a request for 23 000 dollars
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2014, 03:15:04 PM »

He has published some responses to others peer reviewed work in the BMJs rapid response, a system that is used to give an alternative conclusion and question the peer reviewed article. 

But interestingly his BMJ responses have this stuck on the bottom...

Quote
Competing interests: Dr Farsalinos has been the principle investigator in studies concerning e-cigarette safety for which the insitution (but not the researchers) has received funding from e-cigarette companies.

What we need is a real independent scientist, that is not funded by big ecig, big tobacco or big pharma, to produce some proper conclusions so we know exactly where we stand.  I do not like it when Dr's act like campaigners and their institutions receive funding, it muddies the waters for true indy scientists.   Someone cleaner than clean, un connected to the industry in anyway, so we the users know that the person is not just spouting what the backers want here.

As for supporting this quest,  I might.  We will see.  It is certainly a bit of research that is massively overdue, I just hope it is publishable in BMJ. 
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itsmeitis

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Re: ISSUE - a request for 23 000 dollars
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2014, 03:21:51 PM »

well - i was facinated when reading his less than favourable and quite unorthodox insight which he eagerly offered toward discrediting TW amid ECCA facebook pages.

in light of his bizarrely opinionated views pertaining to TW, i would not be at all surprised if it transpired that his funding was formally indirect as provided by a 'rival' camp.

on this occasion though, i wonder if we have a slight insight into his upcoming analysis and conclusion.

seems to me that aspects of the 'industry' would prefer to see an end to TPD involvement - we'd need to lose the 'tobacco' element which runs current, for that to even nearly happen.



it really would be great to garner independent research to counteract EU or latter domestic policy aimed at limiting e-cigs, but as we saw with the wilfully buried Canadian report, anything prompting doubt, can and will be manipulated to its full, be it from within or outside this fruitful industry.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2014, 05:36:51 PM by itsmeitis »
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itsmeitis

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Re: ISSUE - a request for 23 000 dollars
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2014, 03:47:04 PM »

a statement has today been released by a member of the VTTV team, which i believe was meant to allay fears:

"Dr F has discovered something he didnt expect to find, something that in the long term could cause us problems, hence he needs to do this study. He cannot tell us what it is at this stage, to do so would jeapordise the industry"

 :o

"but he also reassures us, that this is nothing to worry about in the short term, and would only show an effect after a lifetime of vaping. But nevertheless this needs investigating and the industry informed to ensure that this problem is eradicated."

lets hope his latest assumption/re-evaluation is more correct than his last - for everybodys safety.

"We have a duty to help with this. Not just for our own peace of mind, but to help us in our fight for the right to Vape freely. Also imagine the effect it would have within a court of law, if it ever came to that, for it to be highlighted that Vapers, worldwide contributed to the costs of such a study?"

i have to wonder, if any court in our land would appreciate the innocent being kept deliberately unaware while held to ransom, let alone that apparent dangers were actively covered up to protect the industry partners but only until monetary reward found target.

« Last Edit: January 17, 2014, 03:52:22 PM by itsmeitis »
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itsmeitis

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Re: ISSUE - a request for 23 000 dollars
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2014, 04:09:44 PM »

the penultimate line from the VTTV statement is quite ironic, particularly as VTTV had just yesterday used this for their own ends in presenting this item as their show, with sponsoring.

"So come on, lets not debate it, lets just get on with it and get this study done and dusted !"

their final line offers redirection to view their show - handy for those sponsers.
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a1laserboy

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Re: ISSUE - a request for 23 000 dollars
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2014, 04:16:02 PM »

I'd be interested to see how much he is taking from the fund as salary/fee.
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itsmeitis

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Re: ISSUE - a request for 23 000 dollars
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2014, 04:19:45 PM »

I'd be interested to see how much he is taking from the fund as salary/fee.

i'm very much the pessimist, but i'd hedge a guess he'll be getting perhaps a spectral analysis machine or something along those lines, thus the useful tools to stand himself in good stead for future earnings.
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ilegal

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Re: ISSUE - a request for 23 000 dollars
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2014, 08:41:58 PM »

Got to be honest, I wish I was as clued into the 'debate' here as the other contributors, itsemeitis etc - I just vape as I feel tons better than when doing the fags. I'm thinking about it a lot more these days tho I have to say. I liked this from @kondor101 especially:

What we need is a real independent scientist, that is not funded by big ecig, big tobacco or big pharma, to produce some proper conclusions so we know exactly where we stand.  I do not like it when Dr's act like campaigners and their institutions receive funding, it muddies the waters for true indy scientists.   Someone cleaner than clean, un connected to the industry in anyway, so we the users know that the person is not just spouting what the backers want here.

Spot on bud
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itsmeitis

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Re: ISSUE - a request for 23 000 dollars
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2014, 10:15:24 PM »

we do get some of that from time to time - but, it is more likely to be followed up by strategic management, if it tends to implicate the fruitful industry that is e-cigs.

this report of 2010 by a culinary flavour house with primary concerns outside of the e-cig industry, made clear their concerns surrounding use of dubious products in respiratory use.
here's statement as of 2010 - where worrying elements were clearly outlined.



source


of course, the same issue has re-surfaced on occasion, but while deemed 'damaging' to even debate this by those directly influential upon the industry, it sometimes becomes easier to 'lock' and bury the topic.
this is not though always the case, and 'danger' has on occasion been used to advantage certain interests inside the industry, particularly useful it was to promote doubt, when Amazon provided products at such competitive price, that those losing monies, needed a helping hand which insinuation of 'danger' could conveniently offer.

perhaps obviously, indicators would cause me to suspect that these ingredients are the very same ones suddenly shrouded in mystery amid this the $23 00 ransom, but i'd be jumping to conclusions beyond my capacity, and logic has me doubting why there'd be such concerted effort to conceal such information while such chemicals are readily known about.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2014, 10:25:58 PM by itsmeitis »
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ilegal

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Re: ISSUE - a request for 23 000 dollars
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2014, 08:17:06 AM »

Might be as simple as that, just seeing whether acetoin is in other juices around the world, with the monies raised going to his own lab to do the work? He says it will cost 5-10% to buy the juice (maybe he should try Fasttech  ;)) with the rest going the lab to pay for the testing

If there's a vested interest behind it and the study has an element of let's-promote-our-brand-at-the-expense-of-others-by-testing-for-something-we-know-we've-removed-so-we-can-whip-up-a-****-storm-about-everyone-else-and-come-out-on-top then I'd be disappointed

ANother issue could be that whilst it's fine testing for specific ingredients to 'know how big the problem is', this seems a bit closed to me - shouldn't it be a broad analysis that identifies any harmful ingredients?

I think every company that sells juice should voluntarily publish a full chemical breakdown of that juice online. Perhaps someone should set up a non-profit site that accepts and collates all the submissions so the vaping community could use it for reference and make its own decisions?
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Tippercow

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Re: ISSUE - a request for 23 000 dollars
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2014, 12:47:19 PM »

He says it will cost 5-10% to buy the juice (maybe he should try Fasttech  ;)) with the rest going the lab to pay for the testing

If he buys his lab/testing equipment from FT, it will be broken before the juice arrives.  ;D
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